Step up from canon S2...350D vs D40 vs K100D

[dissolve]

Hello all,

I have owned the Canon Powershot S2 IS for some time now and plan on stepping up to a dSLR. I owned a film Minolta SLR prior to my current canon but dSLR's were too expensive when I purchased the S2. Now I have been looking at dSLR's for a bit and have basically narrowed it to the entry-level competitors: Canon Rebel XT, Nikon D40, and Pentax K100D. After lurking here and reading many reviews, I do know the technical differences but I lack the "in-the-field" experience reviews. I will be using it for landscape, sports, low-light, and un-posed pictures of people. I guess what I am looking for here are some experienced comparisons of using these cameras. Will any hinder the purchasing new lenses or flashes? I do prefer Canon, but I don't want to blindly choose that one. I know little about Pentax, but the IS is very appealing. Oh, and for these reasons, does the step up seem necessary? I will sell my S2.

Thank you for all help and opinions.

[speaklightly]

If money or budget is an issue, consider the Pentax DS, which is still available at, an excellent price right now. in fact, it is at its LOWEST price right now. The Pentax K100D is certainly a good choice as well, in my personal opinion.

Because I dislike the grip on the Canon 350D/XT camera. I have to say something. The grip is almost dangerously pinched. Yes, I own one but use it with a wrist strap, because it is that unstable.

The other options are the Nikon D-40 or the D-50, both of which are excellent cameras.

Speaklightly

[Riley]

do you still have any lenses for Minolta mount ?

[dissolve]

I just have the kit lens...really nothing to base my decision off of at all. Plus, I have briefly looked at the Sony offering and nothing too intriguing. I may be replacing the idea of a D40 with the D50 instead. Although, I wish to go hold these cameras to really see. I have read plenty of times that the main way to decide is by going and holding these cameras and testing them out. I need to do that more extensively. I guess all I wanted from this thread was to see if there are any "real world" disadvantages or advantages in any of these cameras that a professional/technical review wouldn't cover.

Thanks again.

[mattdm]

The Nikon D40 definitely restricts your field of lenses, although if you do your research there that may or may not be a problem. There's also fewer lenses available for Pentax, although they do have some really unique and interesting ultra-thin "pancake" lenses like this one (http://www.pentaximaging.com/products/product_details/camera_lens--smc_P-DA_40mm_F2.8_Limited/reqID--6635729/subsection--Digital_35mm_standard), and they've got some new lenses announced this year that fill some serious gaps in their lineup.

[Riley]

yes Pentax need to, and are adding more glass
i think the Pentax is really better featured than the D40 or xti
ofcourse the D40 is quite a bit cheaper than the xti

I would wait till after PMA, March 8, and see what might be on offer
that way you are in a position to better decide on these 3 anyway

[dissolve]

One thing that is making me nervous about stepping into dSLR. The two main reasons I want in is for the speed and image quality. But, at least for quite a long time, I will be sticking with lower end lenses. I will keep the 18-55mm kit and get the around $200 55-200mm lens that I know Canon and Nikon offer (I'm not sure about Pentax). Will this compromise image quality in comparison to my S2? Is it worth it to upgrade in this scenario?

[SpecialK]

I have the Pentax K100D.

I shopped the "big 2", Canon (Xti) and Nikon (D80) first, but as I intended to start with 3 lenses, it would have been about twice (or more) as costly a setup, which, at this stage, I'm not commited to.

Though you can get third party lenses, if you don't get the Canon or Nikon lenses, then there is no overwhelming need for their body. That again led me back to the Pentax. I chose it for the stabilization, good reviews, and reasonable price. Also, Pentax has the 10-17mm fisheye which I really like. The Pentax 50-200 has pretty nice image quality (better than my Sigma 70-300) and is around $175 with the rebate, which is still going on.

I like the camera and it has some nice features and decent performance. The biggest downside to some people could be the small buffer which allows only a few pictures in a "burst mode" before it slows down to write to the card. I don't shoot sports so that is a zero factor for me. The other "problem" is the auto white balance only works down to about 4000K, so you will want/need to set it to tungsten if you shoot indoors and want a neutral color - or shoot RAW and don't worry about it :-) Incidentally Pentax includes some basic RAW processing software, and though many people think it is clunky and crappy, it does the basics for me.

Oh, there's no battery grip for the K100D, but it uses cheap rechargeable AA NiMHs. There are also angle finders, remotes, magnifiers etc, and a couple P-TTL flash options.

I'd love to have Canon or Nikon equipment but someone will have to buy it for me. I would choose the newer XTi over the XT. Not sure about Nikon, but it would be between the D50 and D80. However, if you only want a lens or two, the D40 with kit lens and say the 55-200 would cover the basics. It is not intended to be the middle of a big system.

[Riley]

One thing that is making me nervous about stepping into dSLR. The two main reasons I want in is for the speed and image quality. But, at least for quite a long time, I will be sticking with lower end lenses. I will keep the 18-55mm kit and get the around $200 55-200mm lens that I know Canon and Nikon offer (I'm not sure about Pentax). Will this compromise image quality in comparison to my S2? Is it worth it to upgrade in this scenario?

quality will be good, however dependent on glass chosen, lots of PK mount glass around :)

speed, well delay will be less, but during the transition, you may get a bit flustered with settings etc. as the complication factor is probably about 10x what you are used to. In the end though, the move will prove a good one for the versatility of s dSLR is its customisation for your needs.

[dissolve]

I think for the first time ever, I am actually leaning towards Pentax K100D, mostly thanks to your comments. I just took a quick look at their lens listings and all seems well. Few quick questions. Is the lack of a dedicated AF assist lamp a problem? Only the Nikons seem to offer this. I just realized that the Pentax does not have an electronic meter/compensation in the viewfinder. I really enjoyed this on my old Minolta. How is this dealt with on the Pentax? I have a set of 2500 mAh rechargables...is that going to be enough to provide quick AF? Any disadvantages to the Pentax usability and "real world" performance as opposed to the other similarly priced cameras? Thank you all so much for your help.

[tcadwall]

I like some of what Pentax has done with that camera. I would choose it over the D40 but not over the D50. I don't like the feel of the Pentax (personal pref) so see how it feels in your hands, this is important. The only other issues I see with the Pentax, is that I know I saw at least one review that didn't rank it too great on ISO performance, but I think the Sony was worse. The other thing that just worries me a bit, and it is too early to tell, is that I'm not sure I like the idea of the sensor shaking off potential dust periodically. Just seems to me that something might loosen up or get damaged over time.

I chose the D70s over the D50 for several reasons. Just a couple - when I was in the store and got my hands on the 2 Nikons and the XT, (almost a year ago) I liked the size and feel of the D70s way more than either of the others. But I also liked the dual dials on the D70s. That is one feature that I couldn't be without. Of course the others that are real kewl are the Nikon flash system (which the D70s and up can remote control)... ok I will stop

[SpecialK]

"Is the lack of a dedicated AF assist lamp a problem?"

Flash can pop up for focus assist.

"I just realized that the Pentax does not have an electronic meter/compensation in the viewfinder."

Not sure what you refer to. Exposure compensation is with a dual-purpose button near the shutter button and adjusted with the control wheel. The value shows in the viewfinder.

"I have a set of 2500 mAh rechargables...is that going to be enough to provide quick AF?"

I don't think the mah affects AF speed. I use 2700's, but have some 2500s as spares and for the external flash. I would not use anything smaller, however.

"Any disadvantages to the Pentax usability and "real orld" performance as opposed to the other similarly priced cameras? Thank you all so much for your help."

Only the buffer is a really limiting if you want to shoot long bursts. But, again, it does not affect my style of shooting at all.

Here's the K100D manual PDF. I wish they had used smaller font so the book fit in a bag more easily...

http://www.pentaximaging.com/files/manual/K100D%20Manual.pdf

Some of it is a bit vague :-(

[dissolve]

Upon reading more about the Pentax, primarily from dpreview, I have found a few gripes. It is considerably slower on startup than the either two and the coninuous shooting is very crippled in comparison (I believe I may be using that somewhat frequently where this may pose a problem, not certain though).

What I was referring to with the electronic meter compensation can be seen on this picture of the D40's viewfinder. 7 points to it.

Because of the IS, I have read this is a heavier camera. Is it annoyingly heavy? Gosh, this is such a hard decision. I know I will be waiting about a month to purchase, but you have all been so much help so far. Thank you.

[SpecialK]

"I like some of what Pentax has done with that camera. I would choose it over the D40 but not over the D50. I don't like the feel of the Pentax (personal pref) so see how it feels in your hands, this is important."

Yep. Me just the reverse, though. I found Canon = small hands, Nikon = big hands. Pentax = me.

"The only other issues I see with the Pentax, is that I know I saw at least one review that didn't rank it too great on ISO performance, but I think the Sony was worse."

That's kind of funny because many higher-up K10D owners say the K100D has better performance at high ISO. I left that off my original "good things" list. I've been pleased using 800 ISO thoug I shoot lower mostly.

Here's my non-clinical test...
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q78/KylePix/Tests/ISO-200to3200.jpg


"The other thing that just worries me a bit, and it is too early to tell, is that I'm not sure I like the idea of the sensor shaking off potential dust periodically. Just seems to me that something might loosen up or get damaged over time."


The K100D does not have a dust removal system. Sony and Olympus do, though. If you mean the shake reduction, it can't be any trickier than Canon's IS or Nikons VR system in the lens I would think.

[dissolve]

Ah hah, you are correct on all three points. You are very convincing, sir. Next step, find a place that has all three cameras and give them a test run. I want to thank you so much for all of your help. I will post back as soon as I get to test these cameras. Thank you for all of your help indeed!

[SpecialK]

Upon reading more about the Pentax, primarily from dpreview, I have found a few gripes. It is considerably slower on startup than the either two and the coninuous shooting is very crippled in comparison (I believe I may be using that somewhat frequently where this may pose a problem, not certain though).

What I was referring to with the electronic meter compensation can be seen on this picture of the D40's viewfinder. 7 points to it.

Because of the IS, I have read this is a heavier camera. Is it annoyingly heavy? Gosh, this is such a hard decision. I know I will be waiting about a month to purchase, but you have all been so much help so far. Thank you.


Well, by the time you turn it on, put it around you neck, and hold it to your eye - it's ready. So?

Yes, as I mentioned before, the buffer is limiting to long continuous shooting. Any other camera will be better for a string of more that 5 jpgs or 3 RAW.

The EV compensation is about 1/4 from the right side. You can check page 20 of the manual.

I forgot - the SR does not make it heavy. A fast lens will, though.


Well, good luck. I like the Pentax but if you choose something else I won't feel bad :-)

[noahinBR]

I'm very curious where you are in this process. I also have been using an S2 IS for some time, and am really pleased with the pictures, exept for indoors and other low light opportunities. I'm not a complete novice, but I know I would find the dSLR's quite challenging. I picked up a D40 the other day, and really liked it. I wonder, would I really notice a big picture quality difference in these two cameras, all other things being equal? Also, I love the 12x zoom, what lens equivalent does that equate to?

[dissolve]

I am STILL looking. Knowing me, its going to take a while. I'm pretty sure I will get a Canon. I don't like the unavailability of lenses with the D40, namely a fast 50mm prime with AF. To get 12X zoom on a 1.6 crop body (all cheap dSLR) you need about 300mm, give or take. The S2 IS is about 460mm equivalent, so do the math to be exact. Good luck on your search too!

[Rooz]

I'm very curious where you are in this process. I also have been using an S2 IS for some time, and am really pleased with the pictures, exept for indoors and other low light opportunities. I'm not a complete novice, but I know I would find the dSLR's quite challenging. I picked up a D40 the other day, and really liked it. I wonder, would I really notice a big picture quality difference in these two cameras, all other things being equal? Also, I love the 12x zoom, what lens equivalent does that equate to?

you will notice a large difference in IQ stepping up to any DSLR.

the s2's focal range is 36-432mm, (12x zoom just means the shorted focal length X 12, in the S2's case 36x12=432), which is not possible in DSLR. the nikon 18-200VR is as close as you'll get to a quality 12x zoom with VR. there are sigma and tamron alterantives around the same focal range but not of the same quality.

[coldrain]

I'm very curious where you are in this process. I also have been using an S2 IS for some time, and am really pleased with the pictures, exept for indoors and other low light opportunities. I'm not a complete novice, but I know I would find the dSLR's quite challenging. I picked up a D40 the other day, and really liked it. I wonder, would I really notice a big picture quality difference in these two cameras, all other things being equal? Also, I love the 12x zoom, what lens equivalent does that equate to?
The biggest difference you will see between a DSLR and the S2 IS is the depth of field. Compact digital cameras like the S2 IS have a big depth of field, cameras like an XTi/400D and D40 have a more shallow depth of field. Using this shallow depth of field to your advantage can make your photos better.

Another area where the DSLRs will be better is in noise on lower light situations.

Ths D40 is a cut down model, which misses things like exposure bracketing, mirror lock up, the internal "standard" Nikon AF motor, depth of field button. The XTi and Pentax K100D are more complete cameras.
To get the same zoom range as an S2 IS with image stabilization in the tele range to help you with camera shake, you could look at:
Canon XTi/400D with 70-300mm f4-5.6 IS USM lens, and a standard zoom range lens like the 18-55 kit lens, Sigma 17-70mm f2.8-4.5 lens, Sigma 18-50mm f2.8 EX DC Macro lens, Tamron 17-50 f2.8 Di II lens or Canon 17-85 f4-5.6 IS USM lens.

Nikon D40 with 70-300mm f4.5-5.6 VR lens and 18-55mm f3.5-5.6 kit lens, or Nikon 18-70 f3.5-5.6 kit lens. The other standard zoom lenses from 3dr party manufacturers will not focus on the D40.

Nikon D50 with above mentioned lenses, 3rd party lenses will AF on this camera.

Pentax K100D with Sigma 70-300 f4-5.6 APO DG Macro, with 18-55 kitlens, or the Sigmas and Tamron mentioned above, or the Pentax 16-45mm f4.

From these options the Canon with 70-300 IS will offer best IQ but is most expensive. The Pentax K100D with Sigma 70-300mm APO DG is the least expensive option with IS.

Canon S2 IS max. focal range: 432mm
Canon XTi + 70-300 max. focal range: 480mm
Pentax and Nikon + 70-300 max. focal range: 450mm

[coldrain]

I am STILL looking. Knowing me, its going to take a while. I'm pretty sure I will get a Canon. I don't like the unavailability of lenses with the D40, namely a fast 50mm prime with AF. To get 12X zoom on a 1.6 crop body (all cheap dSLR) you need about 300mm, give or take. The S2 IS is about 460mm equivalent, so do the math to be exact. Good luck on your search too!
The Canon XTi/400D is a good choice of course. It is a lot more complete than the D40 which you will appreciate in future. And the lens choices are a lot bigger. It also operates quite like your S2 IS in settings, so you will feel at home immediately.

[smartguy26]

but keep in mind, the canon Xti lacks a spot metering mode as well
i think its an odd decision on canon's part, but its not a huge problem

[coldrain]

The XTi does not really lack spot metering, it just uses a bigger spot (9%) compared to 3% of a D40. Not a big issue at all though.

[fionndruinne]

9% spot isn't really spot; with an area three times as large you can't get the same effect as with a narrow area (I read that 3%, to even 1%, is considered a "true", i.e. regular, spot meter). Maybe that won't be an issue; personally I like the narrow metered area.

dissolve, when you mention the 50mm prime, you realize that with the camera's crop ratio, the 50mm "standard" lens is actually 75mm on a Nikon (a little longer on a Canon), which isn't truly a standard lens. A little too much zoom/lack of wide angle. A better choice for a digital, if you're looking for a traditional standard lens, is a 30mm or 35mm. There's a high-quality Sigma 30mm option for the D40, kind of pricey at $400, but very worth it from what I hear. It's high on my list. That would give you 45mm, more of a standard prime range.

[dissolve]

Yeah, I know that a 50mm on a crop body is going to give more zoom than probably desired, but it is only about $75 and I have still heard good things about it on the XT/XTi. Its not really a big factor, I was just thinking about it when I made my last post. But I have taken a look at Nikon's offerings and it would be pretty lame to have to give up most of what Sigma/Tamron offers with the D40 because of the lack of AF on those. I went and held onto an XT today; the grip is definitely a bit tiny. Not too much different from the S2, but with the larger body it makes it a little funny. Hopefully just something to get used to. Such a hard decision! Thanks everyone for your help through all this. I think I just need to buy it....

[coldrain]

Yeah, I know that a 50mm on a crop body is going to give more zoom than probably desired, but it is only about $75 and I have still heard good things about it on the XT/XTi. Its not really a big factor, I was just thinking about it when I made my last post. But I have taken a look at Nikon's offerings and it would be pretty lame to have to give up most of what Sigma/Tamron offers with the D40 because of the lack of AF on those. I went and held onto an XT today; the grip is definitely a bit tiny. Not too much different from the S2, but with the larger body it makes it a little funny. Hopefully just something to get used to. Such a hard decision! Thanks everyone for your help through all this. I think I just need to buy it....
It is something you get used to quickly. Only with side by side comparisons you notice that difference (out of experience). It is like cellphones and any other hand operated item, they do not need to be shaped after your hand in order to be able to hold and operate them comfortably.

While a 50mm lens is not a "standard prime" on an APS-C camera, they are very nice lenses anyway, with their short tele reach they are almost perfect as portrait lens for instance (50 x 1.6 = 80mm).
The 35mm f2 lenses are perfect "standard prime" lenses on APS-C cameras.

[fionndruinne]

Eh, Sigma at least does make quite a few "HSM" designated lenses, so there are definitely options for the D40, they're just pricier. I think most of Sigma's HSM lenses are part of their EX (high quality) line as well, though I might be wrong on that.

75mm is a great portrait lens, but misses out on landscapes most of the time.

[dissolve]

Want to make it more fun? I know its more expensive, but what about throwing the XTi in the mix? Is it that much better than the XT to be worth the, maybe, $200 more? The D80 is way too much to be included, but the XTi doesn't seem too much out of reach. That $200 could buy a cheap tele lens. What do you guys think? Thanks again for all the help!

[speaklightly]

Dissolve-

Yes, the Canon XTi is a wonderful option. Perhaps with a Sigma 17-70mm lens or even th Tamron 18-250mm lens. The camera is very powerful, the only question that remains is what lens do you want to mount on the Canon XTi? That will make our discussion more to the point. I look forward to the discussion.

Sarah

[coldrain]

Sigma does not make HSM lenses in the standard zoom segment. Licence stuff has to do with that. So in the most usable area you will not have any Sigma lenses AF on a D40. Sad but true.

The XTi is worthwhile. Not for its 10mp (small difference to the 8mp of the XT, not for its bigger screen, but for its accurate 9 point AF system.
Especially with 3rd party lenses this is a big plus for thr XTi.

[fionndruinne]

Nikon makes AF-S lenses in the standard zoom range, though, both consumer and higher grade.

Between the two they cover the bases, if only thinly in some areas.

[Rhys]

Want to make it more fun? I know its more expensive, but what about throwing the XTi in the mix? Is it that much better than the XT to be worth the, maybe, $200 more? The D80 is way too much to be included, but the XTi doesn't seem too much out of reach. That $200 could buy a cheap tele lens. What do you guys think? Thanks again for all the help!

Ok. I have an XT and a 30D. I can honestly say the 30D is better than the XT in the same was as the XTi is over the XT for focussing BUT the XT does get better when it's given decent lenses.

I heartily recommend the XT and 17-85 IS as being an excellent combination. I also recommend the 70-300 IS with this setup. Once you have those you have a pretty good kit.

As for dust reduction - I really honestly do not see the value of it. I had dust on my sensor and simply blew it off. No problems and no dust!

The XT is good with and without the battery grip. You can always use the grip to make it more comfortable to hold or without in order to make it smaller and more portable. The grip also allows you to use AA batteries.

A friend has the D100 and swears by it. I have seen excellent photos from it with the in-body IS used.

I do recommend whatever you get should have image stabilisation.

The Canon kit lens should be avoided. Get body only if you get Canon then get the 17-85 or if that's too much get the 18-55 USM (the kit lens is 18-55 but not USM)

[Visual Reality]

That 70-300 IS is probably really nice but its a $500+ lens :eek:

[dissolve]

To help with this decision, I have been reading more and more about lenses that each manufacturer offers. Also, I took a look at the metadata from some of my S2 pics to see what zoom I was using most. I rarely moved past 200mm equivalent zoom. I did go wide (well as wide as the S2 can go: 36mm eq.) quite often. Canon has the 28-135mm IS lens that looks very appealing for a walkabout lens. Does Nikon have a highly recommended lens around this focal length? What about Pentax? I know Nikon has the 18-200 VR lens, but that's about $1000 right? As was mentioned before, a discussion on lenses should be of great help :)

[coldrain]

The Canon EF 28-135mm IS USM will give a focal range of about 45-216mm.

For Nikon, the Nikon AF-S 24-120mm f3.5-5.6 G VR would be the equivalent of that Canon lens. That will give a focal range of about 36-180mm.

For Pentax you would have to look at the Sigma 18-125 (will of course also be available on Canon and Nikon, but without IS). It will give a focal range of 27- 187mm.

Your S2 IS starts at ~36mm. It would be advicable to get the affordable 18-55mm kit lenses on the Nikon and Canon to get more wide angle range.