NYTimes on the Tizzy (TZ1) vs. Kodak V610

[nrbelex]

Somehow in my search for a camera, I missed the Kodak Easyshare V610 which was reviewed in today's Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/11/technology/11camera.html). From the looks of it, it would have been a hard pick, but I would have probably still wound up with the Panasonic. The $450 EasyShare V610 offers a 10X optical zoom, equivalent to a 38-380-millimeter lens on a traditional film camera. Interesting - In addition, the camera is only .9 inches thick and both lenses have 6.1 megapixel sensors. It has an "impressive" telephoto and macro mode. It also includes bluetooth. Ok... I'm starting to get a little worried... but then... The Panasonic includes image stabilization, and it captures crisper photos than the Kodak. PHEW... I can't imagine taking pictures at 10X without stabilization unless I carry a tripod everywhere I go. I'm also really happy about the crispness of the Panasonic's photos. For $150 less, I'm still very happy with my buy. :)

~ Brett

[pxpaulx]

i think i'll take a panasonic lens made to leica's speculations over a plastic kodak one any day of the week!

[cvicisso]

It looks like the V610 will be the first real contender for the TZ1. True - no image stabilization (except in video mode... which is strange :rolleyes: ), but everything else looks pretty darn good. People keep comparing the TZ1 to the Canon S2/S3, but the V610 is the first truly pocketable ultrazoom (and therefore a much better comparison). I wavered at the last minute and didn't get the TZ1... so at this point, I think I'll wait and see how Jeff's review of each turns out (both the TZ1 and V610 are scheduled to be reviewed this month - June). Not knocking the TZ1 at all - but it will really be interesting to see how it holds up against a much smaller ultrazoom with MPEG-4 video (finally!!!). Imagine getting an hour of video on your 1GB SD card instead of 10 minutes?? :eek:

[jough]

Yeah, the TZ1 is superiour to the V610 in most ways, but the TZ1 is a true zoom, whereas the V610 fakes a zoom with two lenses and a huge gap in coverage between the ranges.

Also, take a look at how large the outer lens is on the TZ1, and then look at how small each of the two lenses are on the Kodak. Larger lens, more light. I'd like to try the V610 in low light situations, because I can't imagine it not being awful.

The V610 seems to be pretty decent, though, if they can work out the gap in zoom ranges, image quality (very very soft, lots of purple fringing, etc.), optical image stabilization, and let you zoom while taking a video. Other than all of those things it's great. ;)

I expect that the digital cameras we all want will be available in three years or so - tiny shirt-pocketable cameras with huge zooms, HD resolution video, 20+ hours of battery life, and noise-free crystal clear images in any light condition.

Yeah, it'll happen.

[ryanbrancel]

Not sure if you want to consider the Ricoh R4. It has a retractable 7x IS lens (28-200) in the same form factor as the Panasonic FX-01.

[cvicisso]

...The V610 seems to be pretty decent, though, if they can work out the gap in zoom ranges, image quality (very very soft, lots of purple fringing, etc.), optical image stabilization, and let you zoom while taking a video. Other than all of those things it's great. ;)
Surprisingly, you can zoom while taking a video with the V610 (albeit with a detectable zoom motor 'whirr'). Another reason why I think it is the closest competitor to the TZ1.

Uhhh... I wasn't trying to say that one camera is better than the other... only mentioning that it will be interesting to see how the two cameras compare when Jeff does the reviews this month.

I expect that the digital cameras we all want will be available in three years or so - tiny shirt-pocketable cameras with huge zooms, HD resolution video, 20+ hours of battery life, and noise-free crystal clear images in any light condition.

Yeah, it'll happen.Although I agree with much of what you're saying, your sarcasm and any-brand-other-than-mine-sux attitude kind of reminds me of the reason I don't frequent the Canon forum as often anymore. :rolleyes: Don't forget the target audience here: someone looking for a pocketable, ultra-zoom hybrid - capable of decent stills and more than 10 minutes of decent video on a 1GB card. Manual controls and laser-sharp dSLR image quality are not necessarily factors worth considering for this crowd. While I think that Kodak really missed the mark on the price point for this audience (way too expensive!), I think otherwise they seem to be right on the mark with the feature set. They've got my interest... and I'm pretty picky.

But seriously, you're probably right about the image quality/etc... but I'm curious to see the objective review from Jeff.

Peace out. :D

[jough]

Not sarcasm - those really are the features that I want in a camera.

Such camera doesn't exist yet, but three years ago I wouldn't have thought the TZ1 would be in my hands by 2006 either.

I'm not saying that anything but my brand sucks - I'm saying that they ALL suck in different ways.

I have no allegiance to Panasonic. My two-week old TZ1 is the first Pany I bought, and looked at the Kodak seriously before finding it lacking in every respect but size when compared to the TZ1.

I do like that it takes mpeg4 video. I didn't like that the video quality is really awful looking.

I liked that it was smaller than the TZ1, which is just slightly larger than I really want.

Am I wrong in my assessment? Does the v610 not have a gap in its zoom range? Are its low light photos not noiser than the TZ1? Does it not exhibit more softness and purple fringing than the TZ1 does?

Tell me I'm wrong, show me test shots or videos that look better than the TZ1, or whatever, but don't reject observations as fanboyism if you agree that they're accurate.

[cvicisso]

Not sarcasm - those really are the features that I want in a camera.Really?? 20+ hour battery life and crystal clear images in any light condition?? In... 3 years? We'll see...

I'm not saying that anything but my brand sucks - I'm saying that they ALL suck in different ways.True. True. :cool:

I do like that it takes mpeg4 video. I didn't like that the video quality is really awful looking.How bad was it? Seriously - that's the kind of info I'm waiting for in Jeff's review. Do you know where I can find a sample online or something?

Am I wrong in my assessment? Does the v610 not have a gap in its zoom range? You are correct - there's a gap. Are its low light photos not noiser than the TZ1? Does it not exhibit more softness and purple fringing than the TZ1 does?Probably, but I honestly have no clue - that's why I'm waiting for a professional review.

Tell me I'm wrong, show me test shots or videos that look better than the TZ1, or whatever, but don't reject observations as fanboyism if you agree that they're accurate.That's kind of my whole point. I'm not saying one is better than the other (in fact I've mentioned this fact several times now), but... eh... you are. :p

Seriously - it's almost funny at this point, but I'll go ahead and say it again: I'm not saying one camera is better than the other. I'm just saying they are similar and I'm waiting for a professional review of each so that I can compare them.

[jough]

I said that's what I want, not actually expect to have in three years (my expected "life" of my TZ1, although who knows if my needs will change in a year or two).

I looked at a LOT of cameras and decided on the TZ1 because it was better than other cameras in its class in a number of areas. The Kodak wasn't even close. I am saying that the TZ1 is a superior camera to the Kodak v610 in every way that matters, other than size.

Yeah, it's a bold statement. I can make it pretty confidently, though, not because the TZ1 is so great (although I really like it), but because the Kodak is lacking in so many areas. The TZ1 is cheaper, too.

As far as sample vids - I'll see if I can dig them up. It's been a couple of weeks since I disqualified the v610 from the list of my potential next camera.

[ryanbrancel]

There are enough good reviews out there to gauge an opinion. Although you probably won't have to wait that much longer now for the major sites to post some thoughts. I've found this site has been useful for collecting review links:

Kodak V610 Reviews (http://www.cameratown.com/reviews/review_listing.cfm/hurl/id|2441)

Panasonic DMC-TZ1 Reviews (http://www.cameratown.com/reviews/review_listing.cfm/hurl/id|2254)

Also searching google for the "brand model" and "review" as the search terms.

[bluevellet]

I'm a V570 owner and the V610 is very similar, though it offers the opposite in zoom range.

The biggest advantage of the V610 is undoubtedly its size. I can not stress enough the convenience of having such a small camera (with lots of zoom) to carry around. It's hard to miss a photo op with such a camera.

The biggest problem is the starting retail price. The V570 was a tad on the expensive side, but the V610 is on another level. I think Kodak is pretty cocky and figures this camera will sell in the bucketloads. Hopefully, time and competition will bring the price to more reasonable levels.

[cvicisso]

I'm a V570 owner and the V610 is very similar...
Bluevellet - it sounds like the V610 and V570 share the same MPEG-4 video mode. Can you comment on it or compare it with a 'standard' 640x480/30fps AVI video shot with a digicam? Or - even better :D - can you post some samples?? Thanks in advance.

[seluvsvols1]

Has anyone tried and seen or preferrd the Kodak V160? Generally I'm seeing a prefernce for the'Tizzy'
any word on the lesser zoom cannona700? I like its AA batteries and optical viewfinder, but the are small factors- i have read the TZ1 has a weak flash any comment?
as for the V160 why is there no ISO for that price? I defintly need one!!

[bluevellet]

Bluevelvet - it sounds like the V610 and V570 share the same MPEG-4 video mode. Can you comment on it or compare it with a 'standard' 640x480/30fps AVI video shot with a digicam? Or - even better :D - can you post some samples?? Thanks in advance.

There is some compression in videos so if you've got eagle eyes, you will notice it is not quite as sharp as with competing cameras using little compression, like the Canons. On the flipside, you get a lot more record time. About 4-5 minutes with a 256 MB card. Do the math if you've got a bigger or smaller card.

The VGA mode is 640x480, at 30 fps. There's also a low quality VGA mode, same resolution and frame rate, but can record twice as long. There's yet another low quality mode at 320x240 and 30 fps. This mode can record four times as long. I think sound is in mono in all those modes, but don't quote me on that.

There's some form of IS while filming. I think it works well. But there's only so much it can compensate for. :)

There's some limited editing features, you can split videos and take photos from videos (after filming, not during, this is not the Powershot S2 IS).

You can zoom also while filming, but this process is not entirely silent. Neither is the AT. Speaking of which, the AT (auto focus) may be the Achille's heel. It can be slow, up to a second or two if you've got objects at different distances. I think closer objects are more problematic. In the case of the V570, this applies to the telephoto lens. I wouldn’t be surprised if the V610 has the same problem with both lenses,

HOWEVER, the V570 has an advantage over the V610, you can use the wide angle lens while filming which is a nice benefit in itself. It is also a fixed lens meaning there is no focus at all. So as long as objects are in its focal range (70 cm to infinity), everything will be sharp. This also applies to picture taking (though you need to keep the camera relatively still for the latter).

You wanted samples, here's one taken a few months ago. It's at the best VGA setting, shot with the wide angle lens:

http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=F7CC0BF96270B9DA

I'm using yousendit.com so the video will be gone in a week. Grab it while you can.

Has anyone tried and seen or preferrd the Kodak V160? Generally I'm seeing a prefernce for the'Tizzy'


You're in a Panasonic forum, buddy. And the TZ1 has been out for a few months while the V610 just came out. :)

[cvicisso]

There is some compression in videos so if you've got eagle eyes, you will notice it is not quite as sharp as with competing cameras using little compression, like the Canons...<snip>...You wanted samples, here's one taken a few months ago. It's at the best VGA setting, shot with the wide angle lens:Thanks alot bluevellet!! That video looks pretty darn good to me (guess I don't have eagle eyes! ;) ). Certainly good enough for taking short videos of my kid, burning them to a DVD and sending to relatives at least.

A lot of people get caught up in the 'quality' issue - I can't tell you how many times people have told me "If you want to shoot video - buy a camcorder." Eh... I HAVE a camcorder. It's great. Shoots awesome video. But I'm sick and tired of having to choose between it and my digicam (both of which weigh a friggin' ton!) when doing something as simple as going to the park with my son. Not to mention all the time it takes to dump the tapes (digital 8mm) to my PC, the annoying serial-access aspect of tapes (waiting for rewind, fast-forward, etc), yada yada yada... Besides, I'm not filming a documentary for Cannes - I'm just shooting video of my kid! There is such a thing as 'good enough.' In the Navy, we call it 'the 80% solution' (percentages vary depending on who's saying it) - which means that you simply can't wait for 100% of the information (perfect video for example) before making a decision. Just give me the 80% and I'll go with that.

Sorry for ranting, but I am... eh... passionate(?) about this hybrid-pocketable-ultrazoom issue. :o There is a definite market for it, and it is great to finally see a few companies sticking their toes in the water. On further reflection, I count three pocketable ultrazooms - plus the Sanyo Xacti HD1 (which is incredible but $$$). Please let me know if I'm missing any:

Panasonic Lumix TZ1 (advantage: great user reviews thus far)
Koday Easyshare V610 (advantage: size, video length)
Nikon Coolpix S4 (no advantage - why Nikon? Why did you restrict the video to 320x240??)
Sanyo Xacti HD1 (advantage: some manual controls, incredible HD video)

One of these definitely has my name on it in the very [very] near future. I've ruled out the Nikon because of the sub-par video (320x240), but the others are all too close to call... without a professional review. Steve's has a review of the HD1 (as do many other sites), and Jeff has promised us the TZ1 and V610 this month. So... Jeff - waiting on you! My future is in your hands! :D

[cvicisso]

HOWEVER, the V570 has an advantage over the V610, you can use the wide angle lens while filming which is a nice benefit in itself. It is also a fixed lens meaning there is no focus at all. So as long as objects are in its focal range (70 cm to infinity), everything will be sharp. Bluevellet - are you sure the V610 can't use the fixed wide angle lens when shooting video? I read a few preliminary reviews online (but can't remember where) that talked about the obvious 'gap' or 'jump' when transitioning from one lens to the other (when zooming during video for example) if the digital zoom feature is turned off. This would lead me to believe that you can use the fixed wide angle lens in video mode. Did you read/hear otherwise?

Thanks again!

[bluevellet]

Bluevellet - are you sure the V610 can't use the fixed wide angle lens when shooting video? I read a few preliminary reviews online (but can't remember where) that talked about the obvious 'gap' or 'jump' when transitioning from one lens to the other (when zooming during video for example) if the digital zoom feature is turned off. This would lead me to believe that you can use the fixed wide angle lens in video mode. Did you read/hear otherwise?

Thanks again!

No, because the specs are pretty clear on the subject:

Dual imagers, two 3x lenses (38-114, 130-380)

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/specs/Kodak/kodak_v610.asp

Both lenses zoom in a certain range, but this unique system designed by Kodak is not perfect hence the gap/jump between both lenses. A fixed lens would be useless on the V610 since the camera tries to have as much zoom as possible in a tiny package. That's the entire purpose of the existence of that model.

I think people have to be aware of this before buying the V610 (and the V570). That's one of the price of portability and convenience.

[cvicisso]

No, because the specs are pretty clear on the subject:


Dual imagers, two 3x lenses (38-114, 130-380)

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/specs/Kodak/kodak_v610.asp

Ahh... I see. I misunderstood your earlier post:
...the V570 has an advantage over the V610, you can use the wide angle lens while filming which is a nice benefit in itself.I thought by that you meant that the V610 only used the larger (130-380mm) of the two lenses while filming. What you really meant was that the V610 couldn't take advantage of the fixed-lens/fixed-focus feature of the wide angle lens of the V570 - thereby eliminating focusing issues while shooting video. Thanks.

[bluevellet]

You got it.

[cvicisso]

Well, after all my hemmin' an' hawin' over this V610 vs. TZ1 debate, Jeff has virtually sealed the deal for me! Love Jeff's quote: :rolleyes:
If you want to know what I really think about the TZ1, this statement should sum it up for you: I bought one as a birthday gift for my dad.It doesn't get any clearer than that. Thanks, Jeff, for not beating around the bush! I'm ordering a TZ1. :cool:

Anybody want a good deal on a Canon S2 IS?? :D

[bluevellet]

Maybe he hates his dad. :p

[ryanbrancel]

Kodak V610 (http://reviews.cnet.com/Kodak_EasyShare_V610/4505-6501_7-31813552.html?tag=txt)
Rated 7.4/10
Panasonic DMC-TZ1 (http://reviews.cnet.com/Panasonic_DMC_TZ1_Black/4505-6501_7-31736746-2.html?tag=nav)
Rated 6.6/10

Not that I put much stock in CNet, however kind of scratching my head how they come up with their overall ratings.

[nrbelex]

Umm, maybe they were reviewing the wrong camera because:

Time from power up to capture its first image was a speedy 1.6 seconds

For me it's about .5 seconds. :rolleyes:

I always put very little faith in C|Net reviews since they have so much of their income coming from ads from the very companies they're reviewing. It's ok for an overview but not much more.

~ Brett

[jough]

Yeah, if you're comparing image quality the TZ1, despite its flaws, is still hands-down better with noise and high-contrast areas than the Kodak. I mean, Kodak has a reputation for producing really lousy quality photos for a reason. And Panasonic's reputation for a noisy sensor is also well-earned, although I find that the noise in the TZ1 is subtler and more pleasing (more film grain like) than other P&S Panasonics.

I think the Kodak got its high marks for the whiz-bang effect. Wow, TWO lenses? Who cares if both are awful... it has TWO! And Bluetooth! In-camera image stitching!

I do like that the Kodak has a larger LCD. That's nice. And while the quality of its movie mode isn't as good as the TZ1, I do like that Kodak is using mpeg4 instead of motion-jpeg, so you can fit more on a card.

The C|Net review didn't mention the TZ1's image stabilazation or zoom very much - they pretty much mention that the TZ1 has it and the Kodak doesn't. That's it. I find that the continuous zoom range and OIS of the TZ1 are HUGE factors in choosing it over the 610 (since those are pretty much your only options for superzoom compacts).

When you consider that the Kodak is also $150 more expensive than the TZ1, but lacks OIS, continuous zoom, and has lesser image quality (although bluetooth, 6mp, and is slightly thinner) you have to wonder whether the extra money is worth it for a camera that is inferiour in every respect that matters.

[nrbelex]

^ Agreed

~ Brett

[bascom]

When you consider that the Kodak is also $150 more expensive than the TZ1, but lacks OIS, continuous zoom, and has lesser image quality (although bluetooth, 6mp, and is slightly thinner) you have to wonder whether the extra money is worth it for a camera that is inferiour in every respect that matters.
The V610 review is here now and it says the TZ1 is better and cost a $100 less. I agree.