View Full Version : 20D vs 30D vs XT High ISO...FWIW
jamison55
03-29-2006, 07:58 AM
Took a few quick snaps to see if they improved the (already excellent) high noise performance of the 20D in the 30D. I shot the first set in AV then manually dialed in the settings for the other two cameras so (despite appearances) the settings are the same on all three. I also used AWB for all shots to see if there were any differences in the AWB characteristics. FInally, I set all parameters on all cameras to 0.0.0.
Here's the full image:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y216/jamiewexler/3200sm.jpg
And the Crops (missed focus on the first 30D shot):
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y216/jamiewexler/8002.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y216/jamiewexler/16002.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y216/jamiewexler/32002.jpg
cdifoto
03-29-2006, 08:04 AM
As expected, all three cameras are very capable up to ISO1600 if you nail the exposure. The 20D is quite impressive (I never did see it at ISO3200 until now), and it looks like the 30D is even better.
If only my lowly XT could do that ISO3200... :(
Looks like your 20D is a bit on the pink side. XT and 30D look close to the same to me.
ktixx
03-29-2006, 08:14 AM
I really don't think there is much (noticable) difference between the 20d and the 30d (other than that pink tint :confused: ) I can see slightly more noise in the dark area of the 3200 20d shot, but those are at 100% - a normal image it would barely be noticable. I would like to know what that pink tint is though...is there any WB correction being done on the 20d menu?
Ken
24Peter
03-29-2006, 09:24 AM
I would like to know what that pink tint is though...is there any WB correction being done on the 20d menu?
Ken
Wonder if maybe they improved the WB function on the 30D? Was that on the list of improvements?
aparmley
03-29-2006, 09:55 AM
Wonder if maybe they improved the WB function on the 30D? Was that on the list of improvements?
Ya they improved the 20D's white balance on the 30D by using the XT's white balance algorithim. LMAO
Thanks for the sample images! Its chrismas in March baby! 30Ds showing up all over the place! Except for my place. =(
At the pixel level, they all seem so close that there's little to choose between them image-quality wise. How about lattitude?
Also, are you using sRGB or aRGB?
George Riehm
03-29-2006, 10:52 AM
As expected, all three cameras are very capable up to ISO1600 if you nail the exposure. The 20D is quite impressive (I never did see it at ISO3200 until now), and it looks like the 30D is even better.
If only my lowly XT could do that ISO3200... :(
Just set it at ISO1600 and -1EV... same result except you have to recover it in post processing instead of letting the camera do the work.;)
Looks like your 20D is a bit on the pink side. XT and 30D look close to the same to me.
cdifoto
03-29-2006, 11:08 AM
Just set it at ISO1600 and -1EV... same result except you have to recover it in post processing instead of letting the camera do the work.;)
Yeah I've done that before. My real point was I wish it had GOOD ISO3200. ;)
George Riehm
03-29-2006, 11:11 AM
Took a few quick snaps to see if they improved the (already excellent) high noise performance of the 20D in the 30D. I shot the first set in AV then manually dialed in the settings for the other two cameras so (despite appearances) the settings are the same on all three. I also used AWB for all shots to see if there were any differences in the AWB characteristics. FInally, I set all parameters on all cameras to 0.0.0.
Here's the full image:
And the Crops (missed focus on the first 30D shot):
Looks like the camera differences are pretty marginal...
What is attractive is the subject. Kind of young, but I'm sure that Speyside 12 year old is most enjoyable.;) I prefer the Highland 18 year olds, and sometimes an Islay, but can only afford them once a year.
For those in the audience thinking I'm a dirty old man, I'm talking single malt scotch. Anyone can build a camera, but a good single malt is a work of masters and one of mans truely great inventions.:)
Looks like the camera differences are pretty marginal...
What is attractive is the subject. Kind of young, but I'm sure that Speyside 12 year old is most enjoyable.;) I prefer the Highland 18 year olds, and sometimes an Islay, but can only afford them once a year.
For those in the audience thinking I'm a dirty old man, I'm talking single malt scotch. Anyone can build a camera, but a good single malt is a work of masters and one of mans truely great inventions.:)
Since I spent a lot of time working with Soviet soldiers, my tipple is better-priced - vodka or white stork if I can find it. - white stork is moldovan cognac.
aparmley
03-29-2006, 01:05 PM
Just set it at ISO1600 and -1EV... same result except you have to recover it in post processing instead of letting the camera do the work.;)
I know your right George, but aren't you then introducing more noise do to improper exposure at high ISOs I've done this before and really noticed a jolt in noise! I may do some formal testing on this just for SnGs.
cdifoto
03-29-2006, 01:08 PM
I know your right George, but aren't you then introduce more noise do to improper exposure at high ISOs I've done this before and really noticed a jolt in noise! I may do some formal testing on this just for SnGs.
You're absolutely correct Andy. I shot some football with Bigma that way...and well...the only way it was usable was as a 2x3 B&W print in the newspaper. Thankfully that's exactly what it was for.
aparmley
03-29-2006, 05:13 PM
By the way JW - I'm insanely jealous, you too blue! Boo on the 30D owners Boo!
prego_lala
03-29-2006, 08:03 PM
i dont know how you got that noise level on your XT
here's mine. JPG, inside lights, tripod, this is around the corner of the picture, 100% crop, saved JPG (pixel peeped and 98% :P is original jpg noise not from recompression)
on imageshack http://img60.imageshack.us/img60/6703/xtrebelisoquality4tp.th.jpg (http://img60.imageshack.us/my.php?image=xtrebelisoquality4tp.jpg)
Bluedog
03-29-2006, 08:15 PM
By the way JW - I'm insanely jealous, you too blue! Boo on the 30D owners Boo!
LOL ... this is one swett a$$ camera for sure ... :p
aparmley
03-29-2006, 08:45 PM
LOL ... this is one swett a$$ camera for sure ... :p
Congrats Buddy! Good For you! I bet you can't wait to hit the west this year!
Are you going to change your pbase url from smith_xt to smith_booyaa! LOL
jamison55
03-29-2006, 08:48 PM
To me it looks like the 30D uses a slightly more aggressive noise reduction algorithm than the 20D, but unfortunately (like Neat Image) it also makes the images look slightly softer. I can't really make a judgement until I use it on a job, but from this test I prefer the high ISO of the 20D...not by much, though. I'm sure that they'd be identical in an 8x10.
Surprisingly, when I look at the full sized images, the XT had the most accurate AWB.
Not sure about the pink tint on the 20D images...all the cameras were set to AWB with all parameters set to 0. Before I decided to use AWB, I did a couple of test shots with both the 20D and 30D set to 3000k and the 20D's color is still a little off... not sure I'll notice it in the real world!
George, more than 12yo is definitely not in the budget (though I recently helped a friend polish off a bottle of 21yo cask strength - talk about seeing little birdies!)
Parm, your girl doesn't need a ring that badly does she?
aparmley
03-29-2006, 09:14 PM
Parm, your girl doesn't need a ring that badly does she?
ROFLMAO! Classic! You're right she doesn't what am I thinking! Camera bodies come and go, rings can be upgraded, its a draw! haha!
**New developement** Ring may be on hold do to a possible upgrade in living arrangements! - Vacation has been canceled. That might sound crazy to some people, but we are getting a little tired of hearing gun shots at night. :o Plus we fell in love with a house whose price might just be right, only contengency is us selling our current house in time to satisfy the sellers.
But man. . . Jamie, you know how to tempt a bruva! haha. ;)
Mr. Peabody
03-29-2006, 09:32 PM
Jamie, what about the 2.5 inch display?
Is it sweet?
Do you like it?
Mine should arrive by 10:30am tomorrow.
aparmley
03-29-2006, 11:13 PM
Mine should arrive by 10:30am tomorrow.
:rolleyes: Arghhhhh What are they multiplying now?
Congrats Mr. P.
cdifoto
03-29-2006, 11:37 PM
:rolleyes: Arghhhhh What are they multiplying now?
Congrats Mr. P.
They're like Gremlins. Just add water. But don't feed 'em after midnight.
That might sound crazy to some people, but we are getting a little tired of hearing gun shots at night
what the heck? what kind of neighborhood do you live in? actually, i can imagine how you feel - during my first new years in a new city, gunshots all over! then, in another place, an apartment, a psycho ex-husband broke into my neighbor's - then the cops showed up, order the guy to drop this weapon, and pointed their guns at him. actually, i saw three red laser beams on my window so i had to get my ass on the ground to avoid getting accidentally shot (lasers on the window and not on the guy, what kinda aim is that?!). oh yeah, how about getting your car broken into, and being constantly woken up by circling helicopters (we call 'em the "ghetto bird") and guys on megaphones yelling "come out, we have the place surrounded" or "lock all your doors and windows". :o
24Peter
03-30-2006, 08:42 AM
ReF - sounds like some good photo opportunities to me. :D
We occassionally get the circling helicopters with search lights where I live in Los Angeles (it's harder to hit a moving target which is why they don't hover I guess) but no gun shots (well other than New Year's Eve). I did have an unmarked Police SWAT van parked outside my house once for like two hours. The two guys in the front seat were totally decked out in SWAT gear - body armour, gloves, headsets with assault rifles by their sides - but they eventually just drove off. Some dignatory must have been shopping at the Beverly Center (shopping mall). :rolleyes:
ReF - sounds like some good photo opportunities to me. :D
We occassionally get the circling helicopters with search lights where I live in Los Angeles (it's harder to hit a moving target which is why they don't hover I guess) but no gun shots (well other than New Year's Eve). I did have an unmarked Police SWAT van parked outside my house once for like two hours. The two guys in the front seat were totally decked out in SWAT gear - body armour, gloves, headsets with assault rifles by their sides - but they eventually just drove off. Some dignatory must have been shopping at the Beverly Center (shopping mall). :rolleyes:
Or the could have been posing. There are more poseurs than you'd imagine in the police and military.
ReF - sounds like some good photo opportunities to me. :D
We occassionally get the circling helicopters with search lights where I live in Los Angeles (it's harder to hit a moving target which is why they don't hover I guess) but no gun shots (well other than New Year's Eve). I did have an unmarked Police SWAT van parked outside my house once for like two hours. The two guys in the front seat were totally decked out in SWAT gear - body armour, gloves, headsets with assault rifles by their sides - but they eventually just drove off. Some dignatory must have been shopping at the Beverly Center (shopping mall). :rolleyes:
LOL, sounds like typical LA to me. i grew up near the eastern edge LA. once there was a drive by when i was in a store - they hit the place across the street but nobody even had time to get on the ground cuz it was over by the time anyone realized what had just happened!
Bluedog
03-31-2006, 06:18 AM
More testing to come but with my EF-S wide angle the 30D seems to have slightly better higher ISO results than my XT.
greg30127
03-31-2006, 07:12 PM
Hi guys - I post over on a couple of other boards and usually just lurk in here. Signed up tonight (even though my inner voice was yelling - God no, not another board! Get some sleep!).
Had to comment on the bad neighborhoods. If anyone wants to take good "crime in action" shots, just move on down here to Atlanta. We hover around 4 times the national average on crime, so there's PLENTY of photo ops if you have a good zoom lens (and a bullet proof vest). A buddy of mine is like an ambulance chasing lawyer, only I guess you'd call him a police chasing photographer... never gets in the way, stays way back, but had cahungas I'll never have. He's caught shots of the ends of car chases, crack homes getting raided, and just about everything else. His advice - the white L lenses are VERY nice at night so the cops know you have a camera and not a weapon :rolleyes:
Good thread by the way. It would be interesting if someone ever gets the time to do a comparison between the higher iso shots of older Canon models like the D60 and 10D and put them up against newer ones like the XT and 30D - for those who have been holding out and thinking about finally upgrading. Anyone know of side-by-side shots like that posted anywhere? I've searched around on various boards but so far no one hasn't done it. I'm still on a 10D so have nothing newer otherwise I'd do it myself.
aparmley
03-31-2006, 07:18 PM
Hi guys - I post over on a couple of other boards and usually just lurk in here. Signed up tonight (even though my inner voice was yelling - God no, not another board! Get some sleep!).
Had to comment on the bad neighborhoods. If anyone wants to take good "crime in action" shots, just move on down here to Atlanta. We hover around 4 times the national average on crime, so there's PLENTY of photo ops if you have a good zoom lens (and a bullet proof vest). A buddy of mine is like an ambulance chasing lawyer, only I guess you'd call him a police chasing photographer... never gets in the way, stays way back, but had cahungas I'll never have. He's caught shots of the ends of car chases, crack homes getting raided, and just about everything else. His advice - the white L lenses are VERY nice at night so the cops know you have a camera and not a weapon :rolleyes:
Good thread by the way. It would be interesting if someone ever gets the time to do a comparison between the higher iso shots of older Canon models like the D60 and 10D and put them up against newer ones like the XT and 30D - for those who have been holding out and thinking about finally upgrading. Anyone know of side-by-side shots like that posted anywhere? I've searched around on various boards but so far no one hasn't done it. I'm still on a 10D so have nothing newer otherwise I'd do it myself.
I suppose you could go to dpreview.com and check out the review of the 20D, I think Phil did a comparison between it and the 10Ds high ISO noise.
TheObiJuan
03-31-2006, 07:52 PM
dang, talk about missing this thread.
I dunno how I didn't see it.
Jamie THANKS for these images. The 30D seems like the unwanted stepchild because all the folks that bitch about MP wars didnt get a 10mp 30D. :rolleyes:
Any word on the screen brightness?
Any pushed 6400 images? :p :D
The 30D seems like the unwanted stepchild because all the folks that bitch about MP wars didnt get a 10mp 30D. :rolleyes:
we know you like the 8mps on the 20d/30d/1d mk II but there's nothing wrong with wanting more mp. going to 10mp would have made only a tiny difference and probably would have prevented the improvements in shots per burst, but extra mp's still have their place with certain uses.
maybe if i visited the other forums enough i too would be irrated enough to comment all the "bitching" that i'm sure is going on. but i don't think the lack of mps is much of an issue with most of the users here on this board.
it seems now that canon has a pattern of releasing two cycles of this range of cameras with the same mp: D60/10D, 20D/30D.
jamison55
04-01-2006, 04:17 AM
dang, talk about missing this thread.
I dunno how I didn't see it.
Jamie THANKS for these images. The 30D seems like the unwanted stepchild because all the folks that bitch about MP wars didnt get a 10mp 30D. :rolleyes:
Any word on the screen brightness?
Any pushed 6400 images? :p :D
Hi Juan. Always great to hear from you again! I'm OK with the unwanted stepchild status of the 30D...it made it easy for me to get one as soon as they came out!
I'm also happy that they left it at 8mp. It's plenty for what I do, and I'd rather not take up the extra HDD space.
I haven't used it outdoors yet, but the screen is unreal. Big is beatiful! I can actually see critical focus without zooming in now! Spot metering is nice too.
Have no reason to push process either. It's been my experience (when I unintentionally underexposed 1600 shots) with my 20D that the extra noise isn't worth it.
TheObiJuan
04-01-2006, 06:25 PM
we know you like the 8mps on the 20d/30d/1d mk II but there's nothing wrong with wanting more mp. going to 10mp would have made only a tiny difference and probably would have prevented the improvements in shots per burst, but extra mp's still have their place with certain uses.
maybe if i visited the other forums enough i too would be irrated enough to comment all the "bitching" that i'm sure is going on. but i don't think the lack of mps is much of an issue with most of the users here on this board.
it seems now that canon has a pattern of releasing two cycles of this range of cameras with the same mp: D60/10D, 20D/30D.
I wasn't trying to sound so negative. :p
It's just funny in a :rolleyes: kinda way. I dont have anything against extra MP's but using the lack of an increase of MP to keep degrade it is a joke. They naysayers say the camera is too much like the 20D to be a valid upgrade. But everything upgraded was on "their lists" other than the MP.
Your right about the two cycle realeases too.
TheObiJuan
04-01-2006, 06:26 PM
Hi Juan. Always great to hear from you again! I'm OK with the unwanted stepchild status of the 30D...it made it easy for me to get one as soon as they came out!
I'm also happy that they left it at 8mp. It's plenty for what I do, and I'd rather not take up the extra HDD space.
I haven't used it outdoors yet, but the screen is unreal. Big is beatiful! I can actually see critical focus without zooming in now! Spot metering is nice too.
Have no reason to push process either. It's been my experience (when I unintentionally underexposed 1600 shots) with my 20D that the extra noise isn't worth it.
I'm glad with the upgrade, the price is incredible, especially for what you get.
Thanks for your input. :D
aparmley
05-18-2006, 04:39 PM
So you've had a while now to play around with the 30D. Final thoughts?
some guy
05-19-2006, 04:48 PM
I notice the word "Aged" on the 30d is off focus compared to the 20d and XT. Also what's with the reddish tint on the 20d?! I am unable to detect any noise performance of the more expensive 30d over the XT. Says alot about the XT. :)
jamison55
05-19-2006, 06:17 PM
So you've had a while now to play around with the 30D. Final thoughts?
After using them side by side for a little while...it's just like the 20D with a Niiiiice screen and a couple extra clicks when you up the ISO. When going through the images I can't tell the diff. Have yet to use spot metering.
aparmley
05-19-2006, 06:20 PM
After using them side by side for a little while...it's just like the 20D with a Niiiiice screen and a couple extra clicks when you up the ISO. When going through the images I can't tell the diff. Have yet to use spot metering.
Interesting. . .
loolool
05-26-2006, 11:06 AM
First of all...and most importantly...there is no such thing as a Moldovan Cognac. There are phenominal Moldovan Brandys, but you can not, by definition, have a Cognac that is produced outside of the Cognac region of France.
Secondly, and more topical given this forum, My wife and I purchased the 30D last week after months of debate between the XT and 20D. I test drove all three and settled on the 30D.
The low light capabilities, additional focal points, blending of full XT functionality into 20D shape/feel, faster fps, and larger lcd. To me, someone that was debating between the XT and the 20D, the 30D came along at just the right time. Everything I liked about the 20D and everything I liked about the XT came together (with a few added bonuses) in the 30D. If you have been debating 20D vs. XT, look no further, suck up the increased cost and go with the 30D.
If you are upgrading from a film SLR, the added expense of the 30D over its rivals is a no brainer...my wife and I shot 650 exposures in the first 72 hours. Thats $350 in film/developing savings RIGHT THERE. The most beautiful thing about stepping up to the digital SLR is our immediate recognition that our photography will improve dramatically faster by knowing our results and making real-time adjustments. Immediate gratification is beautiful. Additionally, we are not constrained by how many test shots we take, or how much bracketing we can do...its all just temporary bits.
good luck and enjoy your 30D.
arigato
05-26-2006, 01:37 PM
Out of curiosity, where do you see Cognac in his pictues? he has Scotch whiskey there, which is made from grains typically corn, but has nothing to do with Cognac made from grapes. The process to make the 2 is essentially the same however.
KurtB
05-26-2006, 07:26 PM
Cognac - post #10, bottom of page one. And I prefer small batch Burbon, but that is for another time.
I just got my 30D last week (also after debating between the XT and the 20D), and have a little over 700 shots in about 4 days of shooting.
Now I need to invest in better glass...
It's only money...It's only money...(if only my wife would agree:D )
Kurt
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