Canon EOS-20D vs KM-7D vs Nikon D70s ??

[Rambler358]

I'm looking at possibly getting either the Canon 20D, Nikon D70s or Konica Minolta 7D. I have no collection of lenses so this is an open field for me. Also the Canon's 2mp advantage should not be taken into account here, since I won't be printing anything over 8x10. Cost is also a facter, and I'll be starting out with the kit lens for whichever I get. I've had to chance to "play" a little with these at my local shop, and have gotten a good feel for them - all handle pretty well. I've also read the reviews and seen sample pictures from these cameras but still can't make up my mind, although right now the KM-7D seems to be in the lead. I won't be needing an extensive collection of lenses, just a couple of zooms and a bright prime. I plan on shooting mostly outdoor and low-light scenes, with a little indoor flash usage.

Here's some pros and cons I came up with -
KM-7D pros:
- nice large LCD
- lots of buttons & dials which I prefer to menus
- integral AS
- viewfinder seems to be the best
- best price

KM-7D cons:
- some have reported BF issues
- some have reported inconsistent flash exposure

EOS-20D pros:
- extensive collection of lenses, but not really a factor for me
- good flash setup and options
- extra 2mp can't hurt I guess

EOS-20D cons:
- IS lenses on the expensive side
- most expensive of the 3 I've found
- small LCD

D70s pros:
- also good flash setup and options

D70s cons:
- expensive VR lenses
- smallish viewfinder

This is really all I could come up with, and I'm hoping others can provide some input to these models and perhaps some features or issues I've missed. Right now from what I've seen and read, the KM-7D appears to be the best value for me. Any input and/or comments are greatly appreciated!

[Fred]

Well, there will be a number of replies and votes based on existing equipment. That's my case, as I have an extensive collection of Maxxum lenses and such. I voted for the 7D, and in fact just bought one. With the current $200 rebate available, it was just a little more than the 5D, but for me a better camera. I like having controls on the outside like my Maxxum 7 better than using menus. The Anti-Shake capability for my existing lenses was also a big plus.

In your case, since you have no stock of lenses, it may very well come down to which just "feels right". Good luck with whatever you decide.

[Chucko]

I bought my first DSLR this past year. I was also starting from scratch - my film SLRs were old Canon FD mount, and the lenses weren't supported on any DSLR system.

For me the choice came down to Canon or Nikon. I wanted to buy into a system which allowed me to use the same lenses for film bodies. The Maxxum series might have been an alternative, but I just didn't consider it an industry leading system. Canon and Nikon gear is available everywhere. I challenge you to name one pro photographer who uses any other brand of DSLR!

I wound up with a used Canon EOS 10D, and soon thereafter bought a used 20D as well. I've had good experiences with Canon gear in the past and was (reasonably) familiar with the control layout. Canon's telephoto lenses are hard to beat, and since I shoot mostly auto racing, this was crucial to me.

Also, the impression I get is that Canon is the industry leader in DSLRs at the moment. I think they have a technological edge in sensors. Nikon buys its sensors from Sony, while Canon makes their own. The 20D's sensor noise performance is superb. The EOS 5D is the first "affordable" full-frame DSLR, again because Canon has made breakthroughs in sensor manufacturing, and its performance is also stellar.

And I think there are more Canon DSLR users now than Nikon. Look at the used camera listings at Fred Miranda, for instance - lots more EOS stuff than Nikon at the moment, and it's not because the Canon users are switching!

That's just my opinion, your needs may vary. For instance, if you like to shoot wide, Canon's wide angle lenses are a weak point. This might be why they brought out the EOS 5D. ;) But I can't remember anyone ever complaining about a Nikon wide angle.

[George Riehm]

This would actually be a tough decision if I didn't already have a D70. The 20D would be my second choice. The Minolta 7D isn't even on my radar, and this may be a serious mistake, on my part, but I just don't find it very appealing compared to the like-featured 5D.

The 7D, like the 5D, has some terrific features (sensor based AS, 2.5" Monitor) but the shutter speed is a bit detuned at 1/4000 and falsh sync at 1/160. These shortcomings probably don't matter to most people, but this is K-M's flagship (?), and the 5D covers these features for less.

Twiddling knobs and lack of an info LCD (also 5D) are also things I don't care for with the 7D. Another big factor, along with other competitors in this market, is the lack of an apparent upgrade path.

Both Nikon and Canon continue to compete with higher performance, professional grade, and prosumer priced dSLR's (Canons competitor for the D200 will probably be out in time for PMA)

It's a good bet that all 3 cameras will give you great results. So it comes down to personal preferences, value, and to some degree the wow factor.

I like Nikon for all of the little things they included on the D70 (The D70s is a placeholder). Yes it has it's quirks, like moire' (which I have only seen in a handfull of pictures) but nothing was detuned or left off, and it fits the current position of Nikons consumer flagship (as does the 20D for Canon).

The little things may not mean much individually, but show that Nikons goal was to design a serious enthusiast dSLR: 1/3 stop ISO settings, mirror grid overlay, 1/8000sec shutter speed, 1/500 x-sync, speedlight Commander control mode, spot metering, large continuos shooting buffer, adjustable center weighted exposure circle (I love this feature) and finally great ergonomics, fast low-light AF, and fast settings/review control.

Keeping in mind that the D70 was the first high performance dSLR for under $1000 on the market (6 months ahead of the 20D which cost $500 more, and 1 year ahead of the XT) it is still competitive in it's price range.

I will be moving on to the D200 for many of the same reasons I bought the D70.

[erichlund]

Well, to this day, I'd guess there's still a dedicated group of Leica pros. Then there's the photographer featured a while back that uses fixed lens digitals. There's a small army of wedding photogs using Fuji S series cameras, though they are starting to lose sales to the D200 because they've been slow updating (and, to be fair, they do use Nikkor glass).

[Rambler358]

I appreciate the responses, thanks and please keep them coming.

Twiddling knobs and lack of an info LCD (also 5D) are also things I don't care for with the 7D.
George - a lot of good comments in your post. My eyes aren't what they used to be, and I need reading glasses now. That's one of the main reasons I'd prefer not to have to dive into menus to select a commonly used function, where I'd have to put glasses on just to do that. I think once you've learned the button layout, it would be much faster as well. And I thought the 7D's (and 5D's) LCD is used as an info display when not looking through the viewfinder? The large, clear and bright LCD sure would seem to help in that regard.

As far as an upgrade path, I concur that Canon and Nikon have the edge right now. But I don't think KM is going away anytime soon. The Nikon does appear to have the edge in low-light shooting which is something I'll be doing a lot of, and that's why the Nikon is still in the running. I'm just not as comfortable with its smaller viewfinder compared to the 7D's. Also, I think the 7D's AS would factor in low-light shooting conditions, and where just about any lens becomes an IS lens. The low flash sync might be an issue however, as I will be doing a little flash work.

So basically I'm still trying to decide, and it looks like it's narrowed down to the KM and the Nikon. The Canon is also the only one I've found that would cost more than $1k with the kit lens so far. And it seems like pricing has now stabilized among the mfgrs.

[George Riehm]

I appreciate the responses, thanks and please keep them coming.


George - a lot of good comments in your post. My eyes aren't what they used to be, and I need reading glasses now. That's one of the main reasons I'd prefer not to have to dive into menus to select a commonly used function, where I'd have to put glasses on just to do that. I think once you've learned the button layout, it would be much faster as well. And I thought the 7D's (and 5D's) LCD is used as an info display when not looking through the viewfinder? The large, clear and bright LCD sure would seem to help in that regard.

As far as an upgrade path, I concur that Canon and Nikon have the edge right now. But I don't think KM is going away anytime soon. The Nikon does appear to have the edge in low-light shooting which is something I'll be doing a lot of, and that's why the Nikon is still in the running. I'm just not as comfortable with its smaller viewfinder compared to the 7D's. Also, I think the 7D's AS would factor in low-light shooting conditions, and where just about any lens becomes an IS lens. The low flash sync might be an issue however, as I will be doing a little flash work.

So basically I'm still trying to decide, and it looks like it's narrowed down to the KM and the Nikon. The Canon is also the only one I've found that would cost more than $1k with the kit lens so far. And it seems like pricing has now stabilized among the mfgrs.

I didn't mean to imply that KM is going away. In fact I just read recently that they have some sort of joint agreement with Sony. My point here was that the 5D has all of the goodies of the 7D but at a lower cost.

AS can be helpful in low light conditions where your subject is not moving, but was really designed for those long telephoto shots of static targets where camera shake is amplified. That's why it's called Anti Shake (or Vibration Reduction-VR or Image Stabilization-IS) instead of movement stabilization.

It would be nice if Nikon would reintroduce a dSLR version of BSS (Best Shot Selector) which selects the best of several quick sequential shots, and stores it. This worked great on my CP990.

In closing if you like the KM features then maybe you should also be looking at the 5D instead of the 7D.;)

[Rambler358]

if you like the KM features then maybe you should also be looking at the 5D instead of the 7D.;)
I'm quite familiar with what AS/VR/IS does and its limitations, and that the 7D incorporates this into the camera body is a big + for me. The 5D does not have all the features of the 7D, but the shutter speed and flash syncs are the same between them (according to KM's site). For my needs, the 7D has these features that I consider advantages over the 5D:
- many more direct function buttons (a very key factor for me)
- higher resolution LCD (207k vs 115k)
- higher magnification viewfinder (0.9x vs 0.83x)
- greater viewfinder diopter control
- faster continuous drive modes (for sports related)
- time lapse function
- option for vertical control grip (for extensive portrait use)

Again, my needs are likely to be different from yours and others. And the first few of my advantages above also apply to the Nikon and Canon I was considering. I appreciate you trying to sway me, as I may have missed some issues with a camera. But you should look into the accuracy of information you're providing. ;)

[George Riehm]

I'm quite familiar with what AS/VR/IS does and its limitations, and that the 7D incorporates this into the camera body is a big + for me. The 5D does not have all the features of the 7D, but the shutter speed and flash syncs are the same between them (according to KM's site). For my needs, the 7D has these features that I consider advantages over the 5D:
- many more direct function buttons (a very key factor for me)
- higher resolution LCD (207k vs 115k)
- higher magnification viewfinder (0.9x vs 0.83x)
- greater viewfinder diopter control
- faster continuous drive modes (for sports related)
- time lapse function
- option for vertical control grip (for extensive portrait use)

Again, my needs are likely to be different from yours and others. And the first few of my advantages above also apply to the Nikon and Canon I was considering. I appreciate you trying to sway me, as I may have missed some issues with a camera. But you should look into the accuracy of information you're providing. ;)

I'm not trying to sway you one way or the other just hoping you will look at the alternatives.

What was wrong with the accuracy of the information? Based on your original listed of important factors, I responded by addressing those. Now your list has grown. All I said was (based on your original requirements) that you might want to look at the 5D.

[Rambler358]

George, George, George... What will we do with you?!? :confused: :D :)
I'm not trying to sway you one way or the other just hoping you will look at the alternatives.
Believe me I have, and I know what's currently out there right now.

What was wrong with the accuracy of the information?
You stated:
"the 5D has all of the goodies of the 7D but at a lower cost."

When that's not the case is it?
Based on your original listed of important factors, I responded by addressing those. Now your list has grown. All I said was (based on you original requirements) that you might want to look at the 5D.
My list of important factors hasn't changed. In the KM Pros I stated above, I mentioned I prefered buttons and dials in contrast to menu choices. Obviously the 7D has this over the 5D, along with the other points I mentioned - because you stated the 2 cameras were basically the same, when I was pointing out they are not, and giving the reasons I preferred the 7D over the 5D. You also stated that shutter speeds and flash sync were different in the 5D and 7D when they're not. This is what I meant by your inaccuracy. If you're going to suggest something (and I'm open to that, hence the post) then you should at least give accurate data that supports the suggestion. :cool:

Now I'm still possibly interested in the D70s, but I haven't seen anything yet that shows that it's a better camera (for me). The 1/8000th shutter speed advantage you mention is there, but that's about it all the new info I've seen so far.

Oh, and George - I hear that Nikon's new D200 will have more functions removed from the menus and moved to direct buttons and dials. From your preference of not liking to "twiddle" buttons and knobs, I'm not sure the D200 may be the best upgrade for you? From the pre-reviews I've seen of the D200 - I'd love to have it, and would buy it in an instant if it was under the $1k price mark. Unfortunately, it's not and I'm stretching it by going to a KM 7D or D70s, with the KM 7D less so because of it being the least expensive of the DSLRs I'm looking at.

[Rex914]

I'm not sure the D200 may be the best upgrade for you? From the pre-reviews I've seen of the D200 - I'd love to have it, and would buy it in an instant if it was under the $1k price mark. Unfortunately, it's not and I'm stretching it by going to a KM 7D or D70s, with the KM 7D less so because of it being the least expensive of the DSLRs I'm looking at.
We'd have to define "twiddling." I don't think that a sane DSLR user would like to have to fumble through menus or press more than a couple buttons to change the ISO for example. On the Rebel XT for example, the ISO button is a cheap hotlink to somewhere in the menu, and you have to "confirm" your change by pressing set. On the D200, you press that one button directly, and it's done (the 20D is like this too). That's not complicated is it? I think that small design features like this really separate the D200 from the D70s and D50 which make the ISO and WB buttons "shared" with other functions.

I believe that the D200 uses the exact same control scheme as the D2X, and it's pretty indisputable that the D2X's design was good to say the least. ;)

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/NikonD200/Images/topleftcontrols.jpg

[Rambler358]

I don't think that a sane DSLR user would like to have to fumble through menus or press more than a couple buttons to change the ISO for example.
No argument from me here, which is the reason why I'm leaning heavily towards the KM-7D. It was George that stated he didn't care for button and dial twiddling (read his post above), and he wants to upgrade to a D200. :D

[Rhys]

I must admit that I find the controls on the XT are a pain when I want to be creative. I realise now I should have sprung for the 20D but at the time, it was my first dSLR and it is a nice, small, light camera. Having said that, the only thing people will see is my photos and it does take excellent photos. Maybe when I can get started making calendars etc then I can make some money from m XT and then afford a 20D or even a 5D!

[murrays]

I just read some comments on Ken Rockwell's site that I thought applied to this discussion of "twiddling": http://www.kenrockwell.com/2005maui/maui-photo-tips.htm

I had to set the continuous shutter mode, Shade white balance and ISO400 while also looking both ways to cross the street in front of the taxi. If I had to fumble through menus to set these I would have missed the shot and also could have been run over. A camera like the D70 with direct buttons to set all this means I got the shot, and should impress upon you that any minute difference in laboratory measured noise at ISO 400 is clearly irrelevant in selecting a camera.

And this page on comparing the 20D to the D70: http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/20dd70.htm

The Nikon D70 has direct adjustments for everything that matters. The 20D occasionally fails this test and requires you to get into a menu to adjust image quality or fine tune white balance, both critical adjustments that need to be made pronto. Worse, the 20D's menus are illegible in daylight!

Check the second link, I think you'll find some good info there.

If you need a high frame rate, ISO 3,200 or prefer a heavier, more metallic camera the Canon is the clear winner.

If you need immediate control of all critical adjustments without menus, light weight or fast daylight flash sync the D70 wins.

-murray

[George Riehm]

George, George, George... What will we do with you?!? :confused: :D :)

Believe me I have, and I know what's currently out there right now.

You stated:
"the 5D has all of the goodies of the 7D but at a lower cost."

When that's not the case is it?

My list of important factors hasn't changed.

Here is your original Pros list:

1. Nice Large LCD - 5D Yes -20D No - D70s Sort of

2. Lots of buttons and dials - 7D Yes - 5D and D70s No
Sorry, I didn't realize that this was a 100% key factor (see your first item in expanded list below). But since it is, the 7D would appear to be your only real choice.

3. Integral AS - 5D Yes - 20D No - D70s No

4. Viewfinder seems to be the best. 5D similar - 20D No - D70s No

5. Best price - 5D Yes - 20D No - D70s No

At this point (without further pros) the 5D seemed like it might fit your needs at a better price. That was my only reason for bringing it up.

Later you added:

- many more direct function buttons (a very key factor for me)
- higher resolution LCD (207k vs 115k)
- higher magnification viewfinder (0.9x vs 0.83x)
- greater viewfinder diopter control
- faster continuous drive modes (for sports related)
- time lapse function
- option for vertical control grip (for extensive portrait use)

So that pretty much negated the 5D, after the fact. My previous comments concerning the 5D did not take into account these other requirements. I guess I should have anticipated these, but I didn't.

In the KM Pros I stated above, I mentioned I prefered buttons and dials in contrast to menu choices. Obviously the 7D has this over the 5D, along with the other points I mentioned - because you stated the 2 cameras were basically the same, when I was pointing out they are not, and giving the reasons I preferred the 7D over the 5D. You also stated that shutter speeds and flash sync were different in the 5D and 7D when they're not. This is what I meant by your inaccuracy. If you're going to suggest something (and I'm open to that, hence the post) then you should at least give accurate data that supports the suggestion. :cool:

Here is what I wrote:

"The 7D, like the 5D, has some terrific features (sensor based AS, 2.5" Monitor) but the shutter speed is a bit detuned at 1/4000 and flash sync at 1/160. These shortcomings probably don't matter to most people, but this is K-M's flagship (?), and the 5D covers these features for less."

I think you may have misread this statement, as I was lumping the 5D and 7D together as far as shutter speed and x-sync. The insinuation was that as the "flagship" I would expect the 7D to be a little better at basic camera functions like shutter speed and x-sync.


Now I'm still possibly interested in the D70s, but I haven't seen anything yet that shows that it's a better camera (for me). The 1/8000th shutter speed advantage you mention is there, but that's about it all the new info I've seen so far.

Why would you still consider the D70s? With all the requirements that you now deem important, the 7D seems to be the ideal camera for you. Again, sorry I brought up the 5D. It was just a possible lower cost alternative.

Oh, and George - I hear that Nikon's new D200 will have more functions removed from the menus and moved to direct buttons and dials. From your preference of not liking to "twiddle" buttons and knobs, I'm not sure the D200 may be the best upgrade for you? From the pre-reviews I've seen of the D200 - I'd love to have it, and would buy it in an instant if it was under the $1k price mark. Unfortunately, it's not and I'm stretching it by going to a KM 7D or D70s, with the KM 7D less so because of it being the least expensive of the DSLRs I'm looking at.

The "twiddle" comment was aimed squarly at the myriad of knobs, dials, switches and buttons on the 7D, and particularily the separate EV setting knob. I don't care for this arrangement, and would rather have an info LCD. It's just my PERSONAL preference.

In closing, I wish you well on your decision, and truely hope you enjoy your dSLR experience as much as I have. I'm sure that the 7D owners will look forward to your posts on the KM dSLR board and, we all, on the Photo boards as well.

[TWD]

I own a KM 7D and I feel that pro camera shooters engineered this fine camera. All the buttons and dials fit my hands like a silk glove - to use a tired cliche. So I would agree that buttons & dials are a powerful plus for the 7D.

I have had no trouble with back focus. They seem to have gotten that fixed in later shipments.

I have a 3600 HS (D) flash and have had very predictable flash with it for whatever that's worth.

As far as not having an upgrade path, the 7D is KM's first DSLR, and I wouldn't be surprised if a there is a 9D out in the future. Might even be full sensor :D But maybe a 9D is my own wishful thinking...

At any rate, I have been very happy with my camera. It has paid for itself with my graphic design projects, so it has stood the commercial uses test handily.

Best wishes on your camera purchase, whatever it is. :)

[Rex914]

I must admit that I find the controls on the XT are a pain when I want to be creative. I realise now I should have sprung for the 20D but at the time, it was my first dSLR and it is a nice, small, light camera. Having said that, the only thing people will see is my photos and it does take excellent photos. Maybe when I can get started making calendars etc then I can make some money from m XT and then afford a 20D or even a 5D!

Very well said. These controls and bells and whistles have no real effect on the end product. They just make the process quicker and more seamless so that we can focus on the picture taking rather than fighting with the camera.

[Rhys]

Very well said. These controls and bells and whistles have no real effect on the end product. They just make the process quicker and more seamless so that we can focus on the picture taking rather than fighting with the camera.

After years of using manual mechanical cameras, I went over to a Pentax Super A. What a nightmare! Aside from poor construction that necessitated warranty repairs (three times in a year), the controls were most fiddly. In the end I sold it and got my Nikon FMs. Fully mechanical - one hand for the shutter and one for the aperture. I never had any problems. If digital hadn't come along, I'd still be using them.


If camera manufacturers concentrated on simple, usable products rather than trying to outdo each other with extra features, life would be much easier and much simpler. I don't need 500 scene modes. All I need is manual, aperture priority, shutter priority and program with program shift.

I don't need menus on my camera for white balance, sharpness, contrast etc. They tend to be set once and only once and would thus benefit from a separate plugin screen/kepyad. When the settings are right, who bothers tinkering? I don't!

All I want is two dials - shutter and aperture with one being able to be changed to program shift. I'd like an ISO dial and I'd also like to be able to use my old Metz 45 CT1 flashgun!

[Rambler358]

George - Don't get me wrong. The KM-5D is a nice camera, it's just not in the same catagory as the 7D. Same thing with the D50 and D70 - 2 seperate leagues of cameras. I looked into the 5D and D50, but wanted something more - hence my post title of camera considerations. My added list was to show you that there are indeed differences between the 5D and 7D - and was only a partial list to show you which ones were of use to me.

And yes - the D70s is still a prospect, as it does have more manual buttons than its smaller D50 cousin., though still less than the 7D. The D50s' LCD, while quite not as large as the 7D, does have high resolution. But so far, the 7D is still in the lead.

[Rex914]

Maybe you said it up there, but is there something in particular about the 20D that you don't like besides price? And even then, the rebates will bring its price down to about $1000 even if you buy 1 lens with it.

[erichlund]

After years of using manual mechanical cameras, I went over to a Pentax Super A. What a nightmare! Aside from poor construction that necessitated warranty repairs (three times in a year), the controls were most fiddly. In the end I sold it and got my Nikon FMs. Fully mechanical - one hand for the shutter and one for the aperture. I never had any problems. If digital hadn't come along, I'd still be using them.


If camera manufacturers concentrated on simple, usable products rather than trying to outdo each other with extra features, life would be much easier and much simpler. I don't need 500 scene modes. All I need is manual, aperture priority, shutter priority and program with program shift.
Sounds like a pro camera. Even the new D200 buries the scene modes in menus.
I don't need menus on my camera for white balance, sharpness, contrast etc. They tend to be set once and only once and would thus benefit from a separate plugin screen/kepyad. When the settings are right, who bothers tinkering? I don't!
Light changes. The ability to change ISO and White balance without going into menus is a great convenience. Apparently a lot of pros change quality settings a lot. That's why these are grouped as buttons on the D200. I personally don't have a need to change quality that often, but I can fault the manufacturer for giving the pros what they want, especially as it mostly benefits me.
All I want is two dials - shutter and aperture with one being able to be changed to program shift. I'd like an ISO dial and I'd also like to be able to use my old Metz 45 CT1 flashgun!

What does the Canon do for ISO? On Nikon, you press the ISO button and spin a dial. That's pretty darn close to what you are asking for.

[Rex914]

What does the Canon do for ISO? On Nikon, you press the ISO button and spin a dial. That's pretty darn close to what you are asking for.

He uses the XT, not a 20D. ;)

BTW, any luck in getting a D200? My local shop (which I didn't pre-order from anyways) reportedly got swamped at opening and all D200's got sold on the spot to those pre-orderers.

[Rambler358]

Maybe you said it up there, but is there something in particular about the 20D that you don't like besides price? And even then, the rebates will bring its price down to about $1000 even if you buy 1 lens with it.
The 20D is a very nice camera! The problem I have with it is that I'd need to keep taking off and putting on my reading glasses. The 20D's LCD is quite small compared to the others, and I hate having to put on the glasses, make a setting then take them off again. :mad: It does have just enough buttons that I could be happy with, and it's actual shooting and low-light performance is at the top of these 3 cameras. I'm going to give these 3 cams another try this weekend at my local shop, and will decide then. So none of these 3 cameras is out of the running just yet.

Canon and Nikon lens question - are IS/VR lenses widely available on the used market, or are these considered a hot-ticket item and don't last long?

[cdifoto]

What does the Canon do for ISO? On Nikon, you press the ISO button and spin a dial. That's pretty darn close to what you are asking for.

The XT is similiar. Press ISO, Spin Dial, Hit Set. Hitting Set is the only extra step. If they put ISO in the viewfinder so you can see it as you're changing it, you could do it while shooting. The ISO button is next to the set button and they don't move...so even hitting SET isn't that inconvenient. It's the lack of ISO being in the viewfinder that makes it annoying.

[Rex914]

The 20D is a very nice camera! The problem I have with it is that I'd need to keep taking off and putting on my reading glasses. The 20D's LCD is quite small compared to the others, and I hate having to put on the glasses, make a setting then take them off again. :mad: It does have just enough buttons that I could be happy with, and it's actual shooting and low-light performance is at the top of these 3 cameras. I'm going to give these 3 cams another try this weekend at my local shop, and will decide then. So none of these 3 cameras is out of the running just yet.

Canon and Nikon lens question - are IS/VR lenses widely available on the used market, or are these considered a hot-ticket item and don't last long?

VR and IS lenses are hot, but they don't really move any quicker than any other "hot" lens on the market. All I'm saying is that there will always be a seller out there with what you need.

[George Riehm]

VR and IS lenses are hot, but they don't really move any quicker than any other "hot" lens on the market. All I'm saying is that there will always be a seller out there with what you need.

Unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on whether you are a buyer or seller, the good lenses maintain fairly high resale value. Even the Nikkor 24-120 VR, which is (in my opinion) a marginal lens at wider apertures (below f/8), is still around $400 even on e-bay, and about $500 new.

The 18-200 DX VR is starting to look like a replacement for my venerable Sigma 18-125 DC, the independent postings seem to confirm that it is a very accomplished lens even below f/7, and hopefully your source(s) on the two new VR's holds true (105 and 70-300) as the 70-300 definately needs replacing.

Thanks Rex.

[Rhys]

He uses the XT, not a 20D. ;)

BTW, any luck in getting a D200? My local shop (which I didn't pre-order from anyways) reportedly got swamped at opening and all D200's got sold on the spot to those pre-orderers.

It'd been so long since I last used an SLR extensively that I wasn't really certain of which features I wanted.

Given the money, the Epson M4P copy would have been interesting too...

[erichlund]

He uses the XT, not a 20D. ;)
I know. It was just a gentle nudge. ;-)
BTW, any luck in getting a D200? My local shop (which I didn't pre-order from anyways) reportedly got swamped at opening and all D200's got sold on the spot to those pre-orderers.
Grrrrrr. You're going to wish you hadn't asked.

I preordered from Samy's Camera, a Southern California chain with 5 stores. This has been quite an eye opener. I won't preorder anything from them again, I can assure you. They made no effort to stay on top of one of the hottest items of the season. The few times I called them or visited, they had no idea, nor did they have any apparent desire to find out. You'ld think a chain like that would have a single guy assigned to keep in contact with the vendor and keep all the stores up to date on status.

They put pressure on to pay in full up front, and then don't come through on release day. I ordered mine on November 12. If I had ordered from Ritz, they were delivering cameras to orders as late as December 2nd, and you don't get charged until the camera ships. I call them on release day and they say they have no D200s and won't get any for a week and a half. Then some guy on DPReview mentions a friend who picked his up at Samy's. I don't mind if I'm too far down the list, just tell me that, but don't blatantly lie to me. And, not to mention, they also tried to charge $899 for the 18-200 lens. I shopped around and talked them down to the local market price of $750, but they said they would look into the pricing and update it if necessary. Yesterday, they still had $899 on their web site. Apparently, it wasn't necessary.

OK, I feel better now. I talked to MY sales guy at Samy's. I'm up to number 5 on the list. There's a good chance I could have one in my hands soon, if not Monday. They still have a pretty iffy working relationship with the Nikon shipping people, but I know I've moved half way up the list, so at least there is progress.

Cheers,
Eric

[Rambler358]

Well, my choice has been narrowed down to 2 cameras - the KM-7D and Canon EOS-20D. My local shop had the 20D in but not the 7D, but they did have the 5D. IMHO, the 20D had the better viewfinder, while the 7/5D have the better LCD.

For the Canon users - are the "EF-S 17-85mm f/4-5.6 IS USM" and "EF 70-300mm f/4-5.6 IS USM" decent lenses? I realize their not the fastest, but they're in my price range and do have IS.

[Rhys]

Well, my choice has been narrowed down to 2 cameras - the KM-7D and Canon EOS-20D. My local shop had the 20D in but not the 7D, but they did have the 5D. IMHO, the 20D had the better viewfinder, while the 7/5D have the better LCD.

For the Canon users - are the "EF-S 17-85mm f/4-5.6 IS USM" and "EF 70-300mm f/4-5.6 IS USM" decent lenses? I realize their not the fastest, but they're in my price range and do have IS.

I wouldn't bother with the IS 17-85. IS is only useful above 100mm for 1.6 crop cameras. I'd rather get a lens with a faster aperture.

This is why I got my XT. I could play with the XT in the shop. I couldn't play with a Minolta or a Pentax.

[Rambler358]

I wouldn't bother with the IS 17-85. IS is only useful above 100mm for 1.6 crop cameras. I'd rather get a lens with a faster aperture.
I was under the impression that Canon's IS lenses were good for low-light situations, even at wider angles - at least this is the case with KM's AS feature. I can see wanting a faster lens, but what if you need DOF and IS?

[erichlund]

IS will be particularly useful for any hand held situation where your shutter speed is slower than 1 / 35mm equivalent focal length. 85 * 1.6 = 136 so slower than 1/136. That, of course, is an approximation, and depends on the quality of your technique. IS is generally good for 2-3 stops, so you can hand hold down to 1/34 to 1/17. 1/30 and 1/15 are close to those values and are values the camera would actually use. Of course, these are base on using the full telephoto end of the lens. If you are using wide angle, the numbers will be different.

I don't know how much affect you get at wider angles, but I imagine there is some value at all angles.

I use 1 / 35mm equivalent because that's the environment where the rule was created. Larger formats traditionally used tripods. I presume the rule is based more on the relative image size compared to the distance from subject than the actual physical compactness of the lens, though I suspect a smaller, lighter lens gives some benefit as well.

Cheers,
Eric

[Rambler358]

Well, this was a really tough choice for me after narrowing it down to the Canon 20D and KM-7D. I got to check out a local shop this afternoon that had the 20D and 7D in stock and let me play with them both, for a side by side comparison. Both are roughly the same size, with the 7D having just slightly more heft to it. This was my first time actually working with the 7D and taking shots with it, with previously just being able to hold it without a lens attached or powered up. And it's my 2nd time handling the 20D.

Ergonomics was probably the most important factor in my decision. As I mentioned initially, I need to wear reading glasses whenever I need to read something, look at a menu, computer work, etc. The 7D's very nice 2.5", high-res LCD is a pleasure to work with, and without the need for reading glasses to use it. The 7D's viewfinder is also a pleasure, including a guage that tells you how hard the AS feature is working. And another key thing about the 7D's viewfinder is being able to change ISO settings and the like, without having to take your eye away from the viewfinder, although you can make and view the changes on the LCD as well.

All in all, the 7D was just better ergonomically all around for me. The Canon's extra 2mp and 2fps, and little higher ISO capability (although very nice) just didn't out-weight how much better I felt handling and using the 7D. Again, this all a very personal decision and everyone has their own requirements. All the cameras at this level are great, but for me the 7D was best - surprise huh? ;) Now I just need to get my year-end bonus soon before the 7D's $200 rebate expires! :D

~Ron

[Rhys]

I hope you'll be happy with your 7D. I'd love to hear about your experiences using it. Thus far we've had plenty of Canon XT and 20D users plus a few Nikon D70 users and one Olympus 300 user but no Minolta users so far. The built-in antishake sounds most intreaguing.